Very interesting - I think you captured a lot of what drive narcissists like Sy.
One part that stuck out to me was your description of your own experience as an NDM. From one perspective, your behavior at that point fell into NDM territory because you were consciously working to influence people's views of you. However, from another perspective, you were simply being *you* - perhaps not the "true" you (whatever that means), but the you who was hurt and tired and needed a way out. It seems like there's only a blurry line between the people we pretend to be and ourselves; as Vonnegut put it, “we are what we pretend to be”.
Thanks, and really good point - I think I’m going to talk about this in further writing. Everyone’s question so far has been “how can I know I’m not doing this?” and it’s tricky because the line between being something and posturing as that thing can be really thin and easily blurred, and all interaction seems to have some degree of coercion and frame imposition.
I like to think of it in terms of: can you intentionally answer internal or external questions about yourself with integrity? If yes, you’re not and NDM and are likely also considerate of other’s autonomy and agency as well. If no, you’re probably hurting emotionally and psychologically, you may project these pains onto others, and you are likely susceptible to sliding down the path of becoming an NDM either consciously or unconsciously.
While it is possible to exist within the Nietzschean framework of Master - Slave dynamics in human interactions, it is just as possible to break and reject those chains and regard yourself with as much autonomy, agency, and integrity as much as any other person. Those who are trapped within the former framework reveal themselves as you’ve described.
agree, I think honesty, internal and external, is the crucial differentiator
to be able to know if what you're doing is inauthentic and merely growing out of a desire to influence others perceptions of you, and not to impose it on others if that's the case
thinking about it, the most pronounced NDMs I know fully lack that ability to know what's true for them and authentic internally as a result of trauma, and so just have no way to check this. they're completely disconnected from themselves, and so all there is is image management and viewing themselves in the eyes of others. and it seems to naturally lead them to become desensitized to manipulation and coercion, if they were ever sensitive to it to begin with - perhaps because it is the only avenue to meet their needs absent deeper healing.
it's genuinely sad - they're blind to the reality of what they're doing, and anyone would probably do the same in their position.
100% agree. I think this kind of behavior is often born of unaddressed and unhealed psychological harm, and has even greater potential to manifest under conditions of psychopathy and/or sociopathy.
I also think it’s so easy to relate to because it can be such a subtle and imperceptible transition into such a state if you don’t check in with yourself or have others sharing with you how you come across. The rationalization can creep in slowly, regardless of the self-awareness of the conditions that have brought such behavior about.
Ulterior motives are another important factor. Whether your actions are in-and-of themselves their intention and meaning, or if they serve some other purpose.
I've had to go pretty deep into videos/writing on how to heal/protect oneself from all the various forms of narcissism (mostly to heal the wounds from a mom whos top tier).
The self-defensive strategies, honesty, refection, and voice that come out on this piece was so personal, clear, honest, validating and strengthening! I appreciated the stories you told about your own need to be perceived in good terms by others; I find that can be so tricky to parse that out as a natural human need when one has been wounded by narcissists, judge them heavily, and are terrifyingly afraid to become one (and yet inevitably still have an ego).
This piece just felt so real and refreshing, thanks a ton!
..and I had a great ol chuckle at the part about being concerned for the persons' own self judgement in the car that almost ran you over - intense!
wow, some of the best writing I've seen on the topic. I'm new to your sub stack after reading your lex Fridman thread, and just read all the articles you have up and wanted more hahah. I really hope you keep writing if you find the time and desire to!
Fantastic breakdown of an archetype - and description of various skill levels of such types. Sent this to a few friends of mine who have more extensive experience with such folks. NDM is an outstanding term I learned today to coalesce many of the behaviors I've seen in the past but couldn't quite put my finger on. Bravo.
Great read. Have you ever tried to go deep with any of these people you’ve encountered to wade into their traumas, or whatever else, with the purpose to get them to realize (potentially change) in the way that you have?
yeah this was generally my approach before i understood better. they generally aren't capable of the kind of internal honesty to make progress that way, and it'll just serve as a way for them to get hooks in you. you've gotta have extremely good boundaries with them
Very interesting - I think you captured a lot of what drive narcissists like Sy.
One part that stuck out to me was your description of your own experience as an NDM. From one perspective, your behavior at that point fell into NDM territory because you were consciously working to influence people's views of you. However, from another perspective, you were simply being *you* - perhaps not the "true" you (whatever that means), but the you who was hurt and tired and needed a way out. It seems like there's only a blurry line between the people we pretend to be and ourselves; as Vonnegut put it, “we are what we pretend to be”.
Thanks, and really good point - I think I’m going to talk about this in further writing. Everyone’s question so far has been “how can I know I’m not doing this?” and it’s tricky because the line between being something and posturing as that thing can be really thin and easily blurred, and all interaction seems to have some degree of coercion and frame imposition.
I like to think of it in terms of: can you intentionally answer internal or external questions about yourself with integrity? If yes, you’re not and NDM and are likely also considerate of other’s autonomy and agency as well. If no, you’re probably hurting emotionally and psychologically, you may project these pains onto others, and you are likely susceptible to sliding down the path of becoming an NDM either consciously or unconsciously.
While it is possible to exist within the Nietzschean framework of Master - Slave dynamics in human interactions, it is just as possible to break and reject those chains and regard yourself with as much autonomy, agency, and integrity as much as any other person. Those who are trapped within the former framework reveal themselves as you’ve described.
agree, I think honesty, internal and external, is the crucial differentiator
to be able to know if what you're doing is inauthentic and merely growing out of a desire to influence others perceptions of you, and not to impose it on others if that's the case
thinking about it, the most pronounced NDMs I know fully lack that ability to know what's true for them and authentic internally as a result of trauma, and so just have no way to check this. they're completely disconnected from themselves, and so all there is is image management and viewing themselves in the eyes of others. and it seems to naturally lead them to become desensitized to manipulation and coercion, if they were ever sensitive to it to begin with - perhaps because it is the only avenue to meet their needs absent deeper healing.
it's genuinely sad - they're blind to the reality of what they're doing, and anyone would probably do the same in their position.
100% agree. I think this kind of behavior is often born of unaddressed and unhealed psychological harm, and has even greater potential to manifest under conditions of psychopathy and/or sociopathy.
I also think it’s so easy to relate to because it can be such a subtle and imperceptible transition into such a state if you don’t check in with yourself or have others sharing with you how you come across. The rationalization can creep in slowly, regardless of the self-awareness of the conditions that have brought such behavior about.
Ulterior motives are another important factor. Whether your actions are in-and-of themselves their intention and meaning, or if they serve some other purpose.
Just... thank you!
I've had to go pretty deep into videos/writing on how to heal/protect oneself from all the various forms of narcissism (mostly to heal the wounds from a mom whos top tier).
The self-defensive strategies, honesty, refection, and voice that come out on this piece was so personal, clear, honest, validating and strengthening! I appreciated the stories you told about your own need to be perceived in good terms by others; I find that can be so tricky to parse that out as a natural human need when one has been wounded by narcissists, judge them heavily, and are terrifyingly afraid to become one (and yet inevitably still have an ego).
This piece just felt so real and refreshing, thanks a ton!
..and I had a great ol chuckle at the part about being concerned for the persons' own self judgement in the car that almost ran you over - intense!
wow, some of the best writing I've seen on the topic. I'm new to your sub stack after reading your lex Fridman thread, and just read all the articles you have up and wanted more hahah. I really hope you keep writing if you find the time and desire to!
thanks mandip, I appreciate that so much and glad you found me
and I'm working on a few posts right now (including a companion to this one)... will have something up soon :)
i love this.
Fantastic breakdown of an archetype - and description of various skill levels of such types. Sent this to a few friends of mine who have more extensive experience with such folks. NDM is an outstanding term I learned today to coalesce many of the behaviors I've seen in the past but couldn't quite put my finger on. Bravo.
Great read. Have you ever tried to go deep with any of these people you’ve encountered to wade into their traumas, or whatever else, with the purpose to get them to realize (potentially change) in the way that you have?
thanks 🙏🏻
yeah this was generally my approach before i understood better. they generally aren't capable of the kind of internal honesty to make progress that way, and it'll just serve as a way for them to get hooks in you. you've gotta have extremely good boundaries with them
Nice writing, mate